Nice Premium: What types of behaviors can generate shame towards others and towards oneself?
Boris Cyrulnik: It’s very easy to answer this question: think about the game. It has only one idea in mind: to hide. People who feel ashamed say, “I’d like to crawl underground.” Not to exist under the gaze of others because others have a gaze that humiliates me. All behaviors are rooted in this: avoiding eye contact, erasure, not imposing oneself.
N.P: Can shame generate self-destructive behaviors?
B.C: I don’t think so. It surely generates suffering, discomfort. I believe it is a bitterness, but I think that melancholy causes self-destructive behaviors. Guilt too. Not shame. Shame is a suffering, a poison of the soul.
N.P: How can one get rid of this feeling of shame?
B.C: To get out of shame, there is a pathological way: it’s arrogance, it’s overdoing it, overcompensating. For example, those who envy their body often become bodybuilders like Mr. Muscle. People who are ashamed to speak become actors. There, they are not ashamed. They are very confident. Some even become singers or mythomaniacs. They invent a magnificent story to compensate for their shame. It’s a defense mechanism, but it’s surely not the best way. The best method is to act on culture, that is, on cultural narratives. By changing cultural narratives, we can see that many ashamed people can shift from shame to pride. For instance, we can say that before the poor were ashamed. Now, one can very well say I am poor, but I have a job, a family, I am proud of what I have done. Depending on the cultural narrative, one can be ashamed of being poor or, on the contrary, be proud of being poor and having done interesting things.
N.P: Shame is a poorly studied phenomenon. Why?
B.C: Until now, our culture has made us believe that what was important was biology, physical sciences, chemistry, or psychological sciences: psychoanalysis, anthropology. Shame is at the crossroads of the two. You can very well modify your self-feeling by the way you talk about it. If I tell wonderful stories about myself, I will feel good because you will look at me with esteem. On the contrary, if I recount painful memories, I will see that I make you uncomfortable, and I will feel bad under your gaze. It’s very interactive: it’s not just the subject alone, it’s the subject in intersubjectivity.
N.P: Does the feeling of shame operate more in our Western society?
B.C: I think we easily have this feeling in developing societies. That is to say, there, you have to be strong, you have to submit to the law of the chief, the pioneers’ law to win a war or a territory. The slightest failure causes a feeling of shame. I think, on the contrary, in our Western societies, we become more tolerant, we dress how we want. We see young people strolling around now with colorful clothes. Two generations ago, they would have died of shame. Boys had to wear a white shirt and tie, and girls had to have a pleated skirt and white socks. If you weren’t dressed like that, you were ashamed, whereas now young people dress how they want and increasingly do what they want. I think, on the contrary, democracy and Western societies mitigate this feeling of shame.
N.P: Do you think shame is due to the gaze of others?
B.C: One can only be ashamed under the gaze of others. The other can be present or imagined. I can be ashamed of myself because I saw she looked at me with disdain. She’s not near me, she’s in my memory, and I remember she looked at me with disdain. She understood I was pathetic. So, I feel ashamed under her real or remembered gaze. It’s the power I give the gaze of others: there are people who despise me, and it doesn’t affect me. Whereas, on the contrary, if I seek their esteem and see that they look at me with disdain, I am affected, I am ashamed. It’s the power I give to people that makes me ashamed.
N.P: What would the world be like if shame didn’t exist?
B.C: Shame is a pressure for conformity. It’s a very effective social pressure tool. If you don’t do what’s morally right, you’ll be ashamed of yourself and bring dishonor to your family. It’s a very powerful conformist pressure. Without shame, society would probably be disorganized.
N.P: Would a society without shame be a society without judgment?
B.C: Absolutely. However, you can’t not judge. As soon as you see someone, you gauge them first and judge them afterward. Societies without judgment, without shame, would be societies without any scrutiny. One can think that a society without judgment would be a narcissistic society where I don’t care what you think, a perverse society. There are people who are never ashamed because they don’t care about the opinion of others.
N.P: Why do some individuals feel more shame than others?
B.C: Because they are completely emotional. There are very emotional people, perhaps of genetic origin, perhaps of epigenetic origin. These people are more sensitive to the gaze of others. They feel ashamed for trivial reasons while others don’t attach any importance to it. There is a whole journey between someone who dies of shame for a simple look and someone who doesn’t care about others’ opinions. There is a whole range for each of us. It also changes according to personal evolution. I could be very ashamed at 15 because I’m not Mr. Muscle, and at 25, I tell myself it’s a bit ridiculous to have wanted to be Mr. Muscle. I can very well change my view of myself. I can be surprised to have been ashamed or not realize I was ashamed. I blame myself for having been ashamed. It’s so ridiculous. So, I’m ashamed of having been ashamed. I can also be proud to have been ashamed. It’s almost proof of morality. If people suffer, I’m ashamed not to help them. It’s almost proof of empathy, of morality. The perverse never feel ashamed.
N.P: Can shame be both positive and negative?
B.C: It allows us to live together. Shame is a socializing restraint that changes according to cultures, ages, and values attributed to events.
